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Loxone Dimmer Questions
8utters Offline
#1 Geschrieben : Montag, 23. April 2012 12:40:45(UTC)
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Wohnort: West Yorkshire
Beiträge: 29

Hi all, I'm going to be installing a Miniserver in my home and will eventually want to add Dimming capabilities to it. Because I can't do it all at once, I'm trying to make sure that what I do now, can be easily adapted to support the future changes I'll want to make.

I'm a bit confused about Dimming, how this will work etc.. My only experience with Dimmers has been the old, traditional in-switch dimming, from a rotary control knob - so please excuse my lack of knowledge!

If we deploy the Miniserver to control "primary" and "secondary" lighting circuits in each room, we're likely to want to use either Low-voltage Halogen, or LED lamps (GU10) in 240v "sockets' - assuming that the bulbs/transformers used are all "dimmable", how does the dimming actually work?

Initially I expect to have the following wiring configuration (no-dimming) - please correct me if my example is wrong!!!
Non-Dimming Example

Moving forwards, once we've installed the Dimming Extension, I assume that the Digital Output of the MiniServer is then moved onto the Output of the Dimming Extension - however, how does the dimming actually work? - Surely the relay needs to support dimming? - Or does the Dimming Extension actually do the LV transforming for you? (in which case, 240v LED bulbs won't get dimmed, will they?)

Can anyone explain to me how this would work in practice?

Thanks in advance :)
Dave
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8utters Offline
#2 Geschrieben : Montag, 23. April 2012 14:30:54(UTC)
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Wohnort: West Yorkshire
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I think I might have answered my own question, assuming I've interpreted the Loxone diagram correctly...

Loxone Dimmer

This looks like the Dimmer extension takes the signal from the dimmer switch (green terminals I guess?) and has a 240V Live and Neutral feed IN, per channel (x4 red blocks at bottom?). The dimmer unit then performs the dimming (PWM?) before sending out a 240v Live and Neutral, dimmed, to an LV transformer or 240v bulb. If my Googling is correct, then PE is protective earth, just meaning that the light source (or transformer) itself should be earthed and that this is not done through the Dimmer extension.

...am I right?
vampiris Offline
#3 Geschrieben : Montag, 23. April 2012 17:34:04(UTC)
vampiris
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Wohnort: Hellas
Beiträge: 27


DIMMER Technical Data
Channel 1: 400 Watt
Channels 2-4: 210 Watt


Yes, you're right about how to connect the bulbs (on your second message)! But there are some issues that need to be careful... How many lighting circuits will you need, how many watts each and what kind of bulbs do you want to dimming?

Ο πόλεμος ενάντια στο "matrix" τελείωσε και το μέλλον ανήκει στους "hackers"...
8utters Offline
#4 Geschrieben : Montag, 30. April 2012 10:47:12(UTC)
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Wohnort: West Yorkshire
Beiträge: 29

Thanks, I think we'll be dimming LEDs (regular GU10s) for the majority of the house.
vampiris Offline
#5 Geschrieben : Montag, 30. April 2012 18:25:16(UTC)
vampiris
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Wohnort: Hellas
Beiträge: 27

1) On your first message you wrote that you are planning to use halogen lamps! Many halogen spotlights (230V) are about 40 or 60 watts each! If you have a circuit with 4-6 spotlights, (maybe) the specifications of the Loxone dimmer are overcome!

2) The Loxone dimmer gives you four dimmable outputs and costs 450 euros. I assume that you don't need the inputs of Loxone dimmer. That means about 100 euros each output and with specific watt each one of those... The only advantage is that: "With the Loxone Dimmer Extension it couldn't be simpler to dim standard lights whether they're incandescents, energy saving lamps, LEDs or halogens.". I belive that this means every type of led lamps of every company!?

If you have a miniserver and an extension why you should give another 450 euros for a Loxone dimmer? Why not taken advantage of every analogue output or even some digital outputs by using din rail dimmers?

Take a look on your inbox! I am sending you some links with some companies witch have din rail dimmers. Special care you should give on the led dimmers! Not all of them can control each led lamp! The are many specifications... You should read the catalogues! And to be clear i haven't check the prices for everyone of those dimmers!
Ο πόλεμος ενάντια στο "matrix" τελείωσε και το μέλλον ανήκει στους "hackers"...
Chris Bailey Offline
#6 Geschrieben : Montag, 30. April 2012 22:54:12(UTC)
Chris Bailey
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Beiträge: 8

Vampiris,

Would you be kind enough to send me those links also please??BigGrin

Thanks

Chris
vampiris Offline
#7 Geschrieben : Dienstag, 1. Mai 2012 11:06:09(UTC)
vampiris
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Wohnort: Hellas
Beiträge: 27

First I would like to clarify a few things to all forum members!

I am not saying that you should not buy a Loxone Dimmer! But that for certain types of lamps that are alternative methods of dimming. There are dimmers that accept analog signals and this gives us the opportunity to take advantage of the analog outputs of miniserver. As explained to our friend 8utters, we should be careful selecting of a din rail dimmers (according to the technical characteristics and the type of lamp that we need to check). There is also an issue with the control via iphone, etc...

At the time of writing these messages I have not installed any Loxone Miniserver. I plan to use one, maybe with an extension, in a small space. My requirements are met by the miniserver and the expansion and the ide to give 450 euro for a Loxone Dimmer does not excite me...

This is my opinion and my way of thinking!
Ο πόλεμος ενάντια στο "matrix" τελείωσε και το μέλλον ανήκει στους "hackers"...
Bayden Offline
#8 Geschrieben : Dienstag, 5. Juni 2012 06:18:38(UTC)
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Beiträge: 17

Sorry about piggybacking on your thread ...

Can anyone explain the pros and cons of the Loxone Dimmer Extension, versus a DMX extension and four of these?

thanks

B
Christian Fenzl Offline
#9 Geschrieben : Dienstag, 5. Juni 2012 09:42:29(UTC)
Christian Fenzl
Advanced Member
Wohnort: Puchenau, Oberösterreich
Beiträge: 472

Bayden;10755 schrieb:
Can anyone explain the pros and cons of the Loxone Dimmer Extension, versus a DMX extension and four of these?


The Loxone Dimmer is capable of phase control and reverse phase control, also - hopefully I translate it correct - multicycle control.

For the Ignition D-10 I found no specific information about the electrical control, therefore it seems that it has only the simple phase control (the easiest and cheapest way for dimming).

The Loxone dimmer is the more universal dimmer.

Regards,
Christian
Licht --> Loxone - Heizen --> Loxone - Einkaufen --> Freundin ;-)
Bayden Offline
#10 Geschrieben : Dienstag, 5. Juni 2012 11:23:32(UTC)
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Beiträge: 17

thanks Christian ThumpUp
EdEverson Offline
#11 Geschrieben : Mittwoch, 6. Juni 2012 16:32:18(UTC)
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Beiträge: 5

For anyone wanting dimming, try the DMX extension with some of these... NJD 12 Channel DMX Dimmer. This is a very cost-effective way to get multiple dimmed circuits. There can be a couple of months' lead time on the dimmer packs, but at less than £80 per pack (depending on supplier - try here Sounds4UEntertainment) it is well worth considering ThumpUp. Manual here if you want more details on what loads can be driven by this unit.

Ed
Philipp Schuster Offline
#12 Geschrieben : Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012 16:28:01(UTC)
Philipp Schuster

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Wohnort: Reading, UK
Beiträge: 164

Hello everyone,

I thought I would add my two pence worth here. I have installed both the NJD DPX12 and the Loxone dimmer in my house. Partly because I wanted to dim lights when the Loxone dimmer was not yet available, but also because I liked the price of the NJD dimmer. I used to fit NJD dimer packs in installations, but now having lived with them my views have slightly changed...

Here my verdict:

1. Noise:
The NJD dimmer is noisy, specially when you run lamps at about 70 percent. You really want them fitted out of the way somewhere. The Loxone dimmer is very quite, with the same load on it (200W GU10 Halogen).

2. LED Bulbs:
The NJD dimmer has got a minimum load per circuit of around 60W, this means in order for it to dim GU10 LEDs that typically have 3.5 W you would need more than 18 on a circuit (I dont even have that many fitting sin my ceiling). The Loxone dimmer has no minimum load and can dim a single GU10 LED.

3. Short circuit protection:
I have got 4 12 Channel NJD dimmer packs at home. This is not because I have got 48 dimmed lighting circuits, but simply because the triacs in the NJD dimmers keep blowing. The rating per channel on the NJD dimmer is 4A per channel and the dimmer pack has got internal fuses, still if a short occurs (halogen lamp blowing). The triac is damaged. The surge is so short that the fuese does not blow, but the triac is damaged. If the triac does survive (from my experience about 50/50 chance), then changing the fuse is a nightmare....
The Loxone dimmer has got short circuit protection with refusable links built in, which means that if a short occurs the link opens and then automatically is remade when the short is removed.

4. High loads:
No question if you need to dim a kW of lighting on a single channel, then the NJD dimmer is your only choice, but I think your electricity bill will quickly be higher than your dimmer pack Smile

5. Recent Quality and Delivery Problems:
I had to replace one of my NJD dimmers recently (due to blown triacs) and tried to get one online... and guess what I couldn't so I had to start rewiring light circuits onto relays. I called up NJD and asked what the problem was and whether the NJD DPX was end of line. They said they had outsourced manufacturing to China and that production had been delayed. When I finally received my dimmer pack it had a very odd problem. Every few minutes the lights would flick off for the fraction of a second. I first I thought I was going mad, because everytime I stared at the lights they did not flicker. I then also noticed that it was only the GU10s, MR16 with their LV transformers were fine, because the short interruption of power was not passed through the LV transformer. Once I was certain the lights were flicking off now and again I turned on all the lights and then unplugged the DMX cable, thinking maybe there is a corrupt DMX packet being sent from the DMX extension... lights were still flicking off... So I contacted NJD support again. BTW they are really helpful! They said they had quality issues with the latest packs that were made in China and offered a replacement (in 2 month time...). So now I have 2 more Loxone dimmers and a few more LED GU10s.


Final Verdict:
You get what you pay for. I think given the above everyone can make up their own mind. I still have 3 NJD dimmer packs in operation and touch wood so far they are fine, but if they go I know I will not be replacing them like for like.

I hope this helps someone.

Best Regards,

Philipp


Addition:
I am using an NJD DPX4 (10A per channel) to "dim" an immersion heater to match the electricity produced by PV panels less the consumption of the rest of the house to make the most of the electricity I create. So rather than exporting electricity for 4.7p during the day and buying it back in the evening for 11.3p to heat my hot water I match the production with the consumption best as I can. The NJD DPX4 is performing very well here (no lights that can blow and kill triacs, large load, I do not care about the noise as it is fitted in the loft).







EdEverson Offline
#13 Geschrieben : Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012 22:11:14(UTC)
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Beiträge: 5

Thanks Phillip,
I have previously used NJD for mobile installations and was happy with them. It has to be said though, there was always a lot of high volume music around so I had not noticed the dimmer noises! You make an important point for a domestic installation. Also, a mobile installation means easily accessible units for repair. If the quality problems with the new manufacturing arrangements persist then these units are far less attractive for domestic hard-wired installation.
Ed
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